Here is a transcript generated by Otter.ai of The Content Mix podcast interview with VeraContent’s Shaheen Samavati and Maya Middlemiss, published author and founder of Healthy Happy Homeworking, on the future of working from home:

Shaheen Samavati 0:02
Hi everyone, I’m Shaheen from The Content Mix and I’m excited to be hosting another live edition of our interview series with content experts across Europe. Today I’m joined by Maya Middlemiss, author, consultant and journalist who just wrote a new book as part of her Healthy Happy Homeworking series called “Finding Your Edge: Establishing And Maintaining Boundaries When You Work From Home.” Looking forward to hearing all about that in the conversation. Thank you so much for joining us, Maya.

Maya Middlemiss 0:26
It’s really great to be here. Thanks so much for having me.

Shaheen Samavati 0:30
Yeah, it’s great to have you. Maya and I go way back. We’ve been connected on Facebook for a while. And I’ve been part of a writers group in Spain. So we’re both based in Spain. So yeah, we know each other well. And I wanted to just point out to everyone that this is an interactive session, and we can bring up your questions and comments on the screen. And well, just to get started, I wanted to ask people where you’re joining from, so if you can mention in the comments, those who are listening so far. We’ll probably ask again in a little bit, because it takes people a little bit to join on Facebook Lives. But yeah, where you’re joining from, and if you’re working from home or from an office?

Maya Middlemiss 1:07
Yeah I would love to know that. Where if you’re working from home, tell us, so we can see where the world is working from.

Shaheen Samavati 1:14
Yeah, definitely. So, but yeah, let’s just get started with some questions for Maya, maybe you can just start off by telling us a little bit about yourself and how you ended up specializing in the subject of working from home?

Maya Middlemiss 1:27
Yes, well, I suppose I didn’t know I was specializing in working from home when I started working from home, which… that happened a long time ago. In fact, it was coming up to my 20th anniversary of working from home just over a year ago. I can date this exactly by the arrival of my Millennium baby who is now not a baby anymore. She’s towering over me. So yes, towards the end of 2019, I was contemplating my 20-year anniversary of working from home and planning to write the big book about it, I was pitching the TED Talk, because I really felt that there was nothing else to know or learn about working from home. It was something that some people did. There was a trend going on towards it becoming more normalized, but it was still quite a rare and aspirational thing. And of course, I didn’t expect the world to change in the way that it did and for working from home to become something completely different for lots of people.

Shaheen Samavati 2:24
So you actually started working on this project well before the pandemic happened?

Maya Middlemiss 2:30
Yes, I did. I mean, I wanted, I knew I wanted to mark the occasion, and bring together some of the things I was doing. I was doing some consultancy work for a London-based organization Virtuemart Distance. So we used to work with teams who were transitioning to working from home, back in the days when that was a managed thing that people planned and did and have piloted and implemented and evaluated and so on, as part of a proper change management thing rather than an overnight disaster response. So I’d done some of that work with teams, I’d also created lots of content around the whole general future of work and productivity, and you know, how to work from anywhere. I was running my business as an Estonian e-resident. So I also do some content marketing for them about that whole situation of transnational business identity and new structures of working for the future. So it was kind of bringing all that together, really, on top of 20 years of actually doing it—the working from home—which started long before I was self-employed. So I built organizations and teams and managed teams, as well as working for myself. So I thought I had quite a broad range of experience of different ways of working from home.

Shaheen Samavati 3:42
Absolutely, maybe you could tell us a bit more about your personal story and how you started working from home in the first place? And why you prefer it, it seems.

Maya Middlemiss 3:51
Yeah, it’s been a long time. My first experience of working from home was actually more than 21 years ago, because it was one of the very first jobs I had when I was a student. I worked from somebody else’s home. This was for a small local community charity, near where I was studying, and the project coordinator worked from her own home. So I used to go there to do admin. I mean, this was going back to… I don’t want to date myself too much, in mid 90s. So working from home then, it could not have been more different. It was a victim support organization where we work with local victims of crime, and we used to get a big fax through from the local police station every morning. I mean, this was pre-email. But we used to get these telexes and faxes of crime reference numbers and then go out and phone volunteers and coordinate going around and meeting people and supporting them. So yeah, it was, I think the main thing that’s changed is the technology in that time. Then obviously I did other things for a while and did some community development work and various other things. Higher education admin. But I’ve mostly worked in small organizations, then when this Millennium baby came along, I had the opportunity to go and work for somebody else who wanted a new project developed. And they were open to home-based working. In fact, it suited them quite well to have a sort of startup within another company that was kind of discreet and at a distance, and it meant not renting an office. For me, it was perfect. And it meant that I could get things going, working from home around a newborn. And I suppose at that time, I probably imagined that one day we’d rent an office if it was successful. And I thought, let’s, this is a pilot as a business idea. But then, assuming when we grow or when there’s going to be more than one of us, then we’ll probably do something like hire an office because that was what you did. There was really no other expectation. This was in market research. And it was very much about having somewhere to bring clients and have those meetings and the postcode mattered. I was living in London at the time, and I imagined we’d rent somewhere central. But then I ended up growing, hiring quite locally. I had someone who came and worked with me for a while, and then she was able to carry on working from her own home. And we just organically grew that way, instead. We’ve never had an office office. I have had up to three people working in my home at one point in the UK. I had a big garden office unit, which worked quite well. And it was also housing our server at the time. And this is all sort of early-millenniums per-cloud anything. We had this big database getting in the way. And it all looked a bit different then, and it was easy for people to come to me. But then, shortly after that, we decided to emigrate to Spain, mainly just because we could really. We wanted to move out from London. And we realized that all the things we wanted from a lifestyle point of view, were really pointing us out of the UK altogether. And looking at the practicalities of you know, where we might live and how we might live. And I was going to Central London, maybe once every couple of months for a meeting then, instead of every few weeks. So it was just, yeah, I thought we could actually do this from a little bit further away. So we moved to Western Spain then, where we’ve stayed moving slowly around ever since. I think I’m what you call a digital slowmad. Because we don’t move around that much, but we have moved along the coast over the course of the decade, and fetched up on the outskirts of Spain to the city of Valencia, which suits us very well right now, we’ve sort of grown up here. At some point during that time, about four years ago, I transitioned to freelancing. And it suited me really well. To bring everything I’ve learned about working from home into helping other people do the same. And obviously, about a year ago that took on a little bit more meaning, a different meaning, as this whole idea of a reluctant working-from-home demographic emerged and people being forced to do it in very difficult circumstances often.

Shaheen Samavati 7:54
Yeah, so I can definitely relate to that story, being an entrepreneur myself who’s like worked from home for quite a long time, based in Spain and also managing a team. Yeah, so could you tell us a bit more about your book itself? Why you decided to do a series and kind of what’s the subject of each of your books?

Maya Middlemiss 8:17
Yeah, sure. And I’d like to engage with some of these questions that are coming up as well, because I think that all fits together quite well. For me, homeworking has always been about choice. And for me, it’s always been a very positive lifestyle choices. It’s let me stay around my daughters and grow up with them and live where I choose. But obviously, once things changed in spring of 2020, suddenly there were people forced into working from home. And so I decided instead of trying to write a big manual about how to do it, and what you needed to consider if you wanted to work from home, what was needed was something more actionable and short and pacey about: Okay, you are working from home. How do you do it? Not, you know, why you should want to. So far I’m calling it a series. But there are two books so far. We have a couple of them out here. Yeah sorry… they’re not for resale. The first book was “Out of the Office” which was literally about that transition. And I tried to write it from the perspective of the things that you would choose and consider as opposed to what happened last March, which was everybody just grab a laptop and do your best. The things that you should be looking for in a position, what you might want to have set up at home, your different options there. Because the problem that we had this time around, obviously was a lot of people tried to work from home in very unsuitable circumstances and locations. The second book, which came out earlier this year, is about the boundaries. Because when you work, with any work, you have to have boundaries between life and work. But when you basically live at work, as well as working from home, those boundaries can get much more compromised and eroded. And it’s really complicated because we use the same technology and devices quite frequently for our personal life as we do for our work. We have the same space. We might be sharing that space with other people in the household who have nothing to do with our work, but have their own expectations or their demands on you, and your time and so on. So, just trying to get some sort of edges between work and the rest of your life. It’s really, really important. And that will always be the case. It’s the case in the office as well, because I think we’ve had a lot of blending and blurring there. But at least if you have a separate place to go, that puts a physical boundary on it. So yeah, I mean, for me, just to address the questions that are coming up in the chat. For me, the advantages have always been about the flexibility and choice. You know, I’ve been able to come and live in eastern Spain, which I absolutely love. I wouldn’t, I could never imagine going back to work in somebody else’s office now, after 21 years anyway, and certainly would never be an employee. But in order to do homework, it should be a choice. And it should also be remembered that working from home is simply one aspect of remote working. Now there are people who are not working in centralized HQ offices, but working remotely under lots of different circumstances which haven’t been available to us throughout the lockdown periods that are still running around the world. So people who like to travel and live quite nomadically, people who like to work in local co-working hubs. People who like to just go and sit in a cafe somewhere, in a coffee shop. There are remote-first companies that pay a stipend specifically for that, because they recognize the needs of some more extroverted employees to just be around a little bit of a buzz and habit. So there are lots and lots of ways of doing remote working that don’t involve working from home. And it’s a huge disadvantage if that choice is taken away from you. And it’s a crying shame that so many people’s first experience of remote work was this incredibly weird and constrained thing that happened in lockdown. And people were talking about Zoom fatigue and burnout and stress and working at home. And they’re associating that with the work-from-home aspect. Whereas actually, what’s causing that is working through a global health emergency, which is affecting all of us in so many different ways. So, yeah, it’s hugely complicated. As we go forward, and the last question there is about whether businesses and governments are going to try and incentivize people to go back, I think it’s important to remember that people haven’t been freelancing, they’ve been working from home, as an employee, which in most cases that hasn’t changed, if they were employed before. They’ve been working with varying degrees of supervision, sometimes to the point of really intrusive surveillance. Other places have adapted to a very good trust-based, output-driven, everybody get on with it and we’ll support each other and just work from home. I think a lot of places are now trying to deal with that decision about: Do we bring people back? Do we want to? Can we bring people back safely? A lot of places cannot bring everybody back into the spaces that they currently occupy because they literally do not have the space to safely socially distantly accommodate people. Especially if they’re in city centers, they might be able to space out in the building. But how on earth do they get people there on rush-hour public transport? You know, there are so many challenges for organizations. So I think there, there we are starting to see some announcements and policies emerging. A lot of them are talking about some form of hybrid working. But that phrase embraces such a multitude of possibilities, from places that are going to be very inflexible with the kind of hot desking that we can have everybody whose name starts from E to M comes in Monday to, or whatever, just to really thinking about space and thinking we want people who are under our noses as much as we can, but we can’t fit them all in. So we’re just going to sanitize everything that we could or whatever, and move people around, or people are coming up with arrangements like two days at home and three days in the office. And so when again, they can be very inflexible, and it begs the question, why? How are you making this decision?

Shaheen Samavati 14:07
Actually, I have experience with hybrid working because in my company, we actually used to do have like specific days that we expected people to come in. And actually, we just decided like why, right? Like, we should be completely flexible about it. And now it’s, well, obviously now with COVID and everything as well. It’s like, Okay, if people don’t want to come in, they shouldn’t come in. So we’re not going to require people to ever come in basically.

Maya Middlemiss 14:31
Absolutely. It’s just interesting hearing about places talking… The difficulty now is going to be trying to work out what the culture is going to be like because, and most places are going to say there will be some element of remote working. But will it be remote allowed or permitted or tolerated? Or will it be a truly remote-first results-oriented culture where you go and do the work at the best place to do that bit of work. And I can’t see any benefits in everybody going back to a big centralized building to sit next to each other working on similar things, not really talking about it or collaborating. And then going home again, you know, I just can’t think why anyone would want to go back to that. But I think there are definite advantages and coming together to collaborate on specific activities or tasks. And there is a certain energy that can be replicated online, but it’s hard work. And you can switch it up by getting people together in a room, especially if it’s the first time they’ve seen each other for months. Now, there’s quite a few people I’m talking to now who were saying “I was in the office this week, and it was amazing, it’s wonderful.” They might not have got much done for the first hour or so, they just had to catch up on all of that stuff. But there is clearly a lot of advantage. You can do all of this online. It’s much more difficult, lots of places never really got to grips with the kind of planned spontaneity that you need to embed to make your work visible, to make that your conversation around the work still go on and to support those relationships and interactions that are all about the work is much harder. But I think you know, there are different ways that organizations can do it. And maybe now, after a year, we can’t say it’s an emergency anymore, we have to start thinking about what’s the sustainable strategy for bringing people back in. And I think people also really need to ask themselves what they want. And there’s a really interesting comment from Kyler here about the way that the population is shifting. There are lots of people, and I was talking to someone who works in real estate around here locally is saying that people are fleeing from the city centers, even in wealthy urban districts in downtown, you know, really pricey apartments, people did get through lockdown somehow or other but often in small apartments with kids, no outdoor space, and so on. They are flooding out to the suburbs and beyond. And I think this has tremendous capacity now to really revitalize areas that are traditionally depopulated. And Kyler is mentioning Ireland where Grow Remote is a really interesting organization that’s bringing opportunities for remote working to rural areas and making sure that the infrastructure like the broadband that’s needed is there. There are cities in the US where they are actually giving people financial incentives to relocate. Places like Tulsa Remote, if you go there with a job that doesn’t depend on the local infrastructure, they will give you a cash payment, which is equivalent to what they consider they would have to pay in planning discounts to get businesses to relocate that they’d rather give it directly to the individuals who are bringing their spending power into these second-tier cities and enjoying a much more affordable and accessible lifestyle than they would on the coast. So I think it’s really exciting what’s happening, these shifts are slow, they’re not going to happen overnight. People don’t just sell their houses on a whim. But they are trends that we can start to see happening embryonically now and it will cause a permanent shift. And likewise, our city centers will change as well, they will have to change and grow. And it’s not going to be pretty, you know, it’s going to be some… some areas were long overdue for rent correction. Places like London and San Francisco, I’m sure Madrid as well, in places that were just really overpriced. There are businesses that will lose out the people that serve those office blocks, which are now empty. And I don’t know what’s going to happen to those office blocks either. Maybe there’ll be repurposed one day for living accommodation, just like it happened with the industrial city centers, all those mills and factories and things turned into trendy loft apartments. And maybe people will actually go back to living in the city centers. But that is going to take time, though, and it will really change the face of the world.

Shaheen Samavati 18:45
Yeah, absolutely. I wanted to remind people that you can ask questions in the comments, and we can bring them up on the screen. And also, I wanted to reiterate the question that I asked at the beginning about where people are based. So if people could share that in the comments, and whether you are working from home or working from an office, it would be awesome if you could share that. So just we can get an idea of what’s going on with all of you. But yeah, on the on the topic of offices, I actually, you know, I recently relocated from Madrid to Malaga. And I started going to a co-working some of the time and I thought it was really interesting that some people in the co-working were full-time employees of companies that had closed their offices. And I was wondering what you think of that co-working trend? If that’s growing? Or are they going to be negatively impacted by this? Yeah.

Maya Middlemiss 19:38
Well, obviously last year, a lot of co-workings were negatively impacted and that people cancelled their subs because they couldn’t go to them, which was very difficult for them. But I think they’re due for a massive Renaissance just in the way that local suburban communities and small town communities are, instead of being places where people live but then dash to the nearest station to get into a city center, than those local high streets and retail is buying, there’s lots of commercial space available. If those can become things that actually serve people’s needs near where they live, it will be fantastic, whether that’s co-working, co-study and childcare places. You know, I think there’s so much potential when people don’t have to do that commute. And you know, they can actually stay within their own community, spend their time there, spend their money there. And I’m sure we will see lots of more flexible, and quite granulate know, maybe by industry or by town, lots of different kinds of things responding to need. One example in the UK between lockdowns, I don’t think it’s really at the moment but I remember it coming out towards the end of last year, was pubs offering a sort of office morning package where they will give you a table, and a lunch and infinite tea and coffee or something. And a plug socket for a fixed price, which I think is brilliant. So you could actually go and work in the pub, be around people, you know, everybody would have their socially distanced table. But they just have that sense of being within the community, within their local area, maybe actually their local pub, and it brought income into the hospitality sector, which was clearly devastated last year. So I think creative and flexible solutions like that are going to be the future. Co-workings will evolve beyond their kind of trendy startup, techie-type vibe to embrace lots of different communities. And I think we’ll see more diversity and specialization in co-workings as well. We were already starting to see things like women-only co-workings and so on emerging. I think we’ll see more segmentation like that, not to be exclusive, but actually to be inclusive and give people a sense that they can come out of their homes and go somewhere that they’ll fit in. And that doesn’t mean they have to travel into a city center just to work with people for the same employee. And actually, I think you can get massive synergy and energy working around people who aren’t your colleagues, you know. I’d love to think of say a writers co-working, where we all, whether it’s freelancers or staffers, could come together and just get on with our stuff, but then hang out socially together and thrive off one another’s ideas and energy and talk about what we were working on. So, I think that would be really cool. So yes, if anyone wants to set one of those up in Valencia, I’ll come and be your office colleague, but those are the kinds of specialisms I’d love to see emerging.

Shaheen Samavati 22:34
Yeah, I think definitely our sector, you know, writing and people working in marketing and creative fields are especially… it’s a kind of the type of work that lends itself especially to working from home. So I think, probably in our audience, like everyone has been working from home, at least at some point over the past year, I think. And I know from all my podcast interviews, practically everyone has connected from home. So of the couple 100 people that we’ve interviewed now. So, yeah, it’s really interesting. Yeah. And I wanted to ask you, though, I mean, a lot of people obviously are working from home not by choice. Right. And definitely things I’ve heard, I’ve heard a lot of people mention, you know, that they struggle with it and have tried to cope with, you know, all the distractions and things in different ways. Do you have any tips maybe to pull out from what you recommend in your book that you could share? And also for people in the audience, it’d be great to hear your tips in the comments as well.

Maya Middlemiss 23:34
Yeah, I mean, I think the first thing I would say is, this is a really important time to think about what you want, and what you would choose if you really had the choice. I’ve actually written a short ebook about this, which I’d be really glad to make available to your listeners, because I think this is the kind of thing people need to have the conversation with themselves first, before they have it with their employer. And if you found working from home difficult, it’s very important to drill down as to why that is. Is it related to working from home or working remotely? Or is it related to the pandemic? Because it’s very hard to unpick the two given that for an awful lot of people, they happen simultaneously in one devastating moment. So if you’ve really struggled with working from home, and you think that your employer might be wanting to encourage it as a long-term option for you, you might have to do a bit of a thought exercise if you’ve never experienced any other circumstances. But what would it be like if your kids were in school steadily and permanently? What would it be like if your partner didn’t work from home? What would it be like if working from home actually meant you could go out whenever you wanted to a local cafe or co-working? What would it be like if your whole organization worked from home and you found new ways of working more flexibly and being accountable to one another for your tasks and your productivity without having to be logged in chatting synchronously all day every day, and then trying to get your actual work done at times around that. So there are lots of things about working from home that people have struggled with, which aren’t necessarily related to the location. Other things are very much related to the location. And maybe there are things you can do in your immediate environment. Perhaps there’s somewhere else in the house you could work. Perhaps you can repurpose a space you didn’t know you had. There’s quite a lot… But there’s quite a lot in finding your edge about finding your spot and ways that you can create boundaries. You didn’t know whether that sectioning off a bit of a room. Even I talked to somebody who changes the lighting in her room at the end of the workday. So she’s working in what’s basically her living room. But she’s changing a light bulb, she’s actually unplugging a bulb, swapping a light bulb out to change it from office lighting to evening lighting, and cast her laptop into shadow and reclaim that space. So there’s loads of really creative ways that you can overcome some of these issues, which really do mess with your state of mind and your productivity, creating boundaries at the beginning and end of each day. You know, maybe that, you need to instigate some sort of virtual community if that is to help you get into the groove at work. Having some sort of routine where you go for a walk or switch something up, you meditate, you do something that isn’t just rolled out of bed and open your laptop. And it’s conversely, at the end of the day, you might have some ritual to just reset to zero at the end of it. And then you know that what happens after that is your own time. Or it might be practical things like logging out of your work apps on your phone, if you’re going to be looking at your phone in the evening, and so on. So, you know, there are lots of ways that you can set boundaries, but you have to work out where the problem is in the first place. What’s really causing you stress. And sometimes you need to really reflect on that a bit or talk it through with a coach or a manager, depending on whether you’ve got that resource in your organization and just, or it might help to work with someone external just to try and unpick what’s bugging you. And sometimes a really simple change, like a five-minute walk before work every day can be the thing that sets you up for the day. Other times, you might have to look at a much bigger, more complex solution like moving houses or something… in between.

Shaheen Samavati 27:13
Do you have like one thing for you that’s like your key habit that really keeps you sane in working from home?

Maya Middlemiss 27:20
Get out of the house every day, I think is really essential. And I know that I’m not always good at it. And the reason I say that I know this about myself is because I’ve tried it both ways. And in particularly during lockdown, as you know, having been through lockdown in Spain, we were in this really strict situation where you really weren’t allowed out of the house every day, it was quite hard to contrive an errand. But even if I just went and did some power walking on the terrace, which is about eight feet long and back again, it was at least standing in the fresh air. For me, I try and go for a walk either at the beginning or sometimes in the middle of the day, during the week. It’s just getting to the time of year where I’m starting to move that into the morning now because it’s a little bit too warm in the afternoons. But the whole point of working from home should be, and I realize this isn’t always the case, but it should be about greater flexibility. It’s more up to you to define your day. So probably the most important thing is to develop your self-awareness and know what you need, whether that’s even in terms of when you take breaks, when you eat, when you rest. What time you start, what time you do your deep-focused, concentrated work. So I can’t write in the afternoons. I don’t know why I can do stuff like this, which is great. I’m not lacking energy. I do all my calls and interviews in the afternoon. But I can’t sit down and just write. I find that really difficult for some reason. It took me years to work out why I was being less productive on some days and others, it was because I was doing the wrong thing at the wrong time. That’s just my personal mindset and energy. But when you are working from home, you can switch that up. You have fewer other people saying: “Right, we have a meeting from 10 to 12 on Tuesday mornings.” Then that would be my writing time ruined, if I was in a team where that was the case. So try and use whatever flexibility you’ve got to your advantage and maybe just run some little experiments. And on a sort of quick, responsive, switch it up. Try this. Try that. See how it feels, sit with it for a bit. if something works well, keep it. If it doesn’t, move on and try something else and see what’s working for you. We’ve got a Facebook group for the healthy happy home working community where people are often sharing tips and things that they’ve tried or bringing out questions because I haven’t got all the answers. I can tell you what’s worked for me. I can tell you what’s worked for people I’ve spoken to. But very often it’s it’s incredibly individual. And you know, I certainly don’t miss the commute, for example, but some people really need to go and do something else for an hour before work every morning or they can’t be productive. So long since I’ve wasted an hour to get into an office that that’s not a problem for me. But, you know, I can see why for some people, that might be what they need to put the boundary between home in the morning. And

Shaheen Samavati 30:16
I think Maya just froze. But I don’t know if only for me, but I wanted to put up this link to Maya’s ebook, by the way, which I put in the comments, but just wanted to put it on the screen for anyone who’s watching this afterwards. Yep, she’s reconnecting I think. All right, and then also, we’ll put the link to the Facebook group in the comments. Once I have that and also like on afterwards and we’ll do a blog post about this and so forth. Put it on YouTube and on Facebook as well. Um, well, I was. OKkay. She’s frozen. Well, we were reaching the end of the interview anyway. Um, usually I would just ask for any recommendations here on things and well, and I’ll have to ask Maya to put her recommendations in the comments afterwards if she’s not able to reconnect. And as well as like any final takeaways or anything else she wanted to close. But yeah, in terms of, I did want to just let everyone know if you want to learn more about what Maya is doing, you can check out her website which is healthyhappyhomeworking.com and also the link to check out this ebook that she’s offering. She’s back! Great.

Maya Middlemiss 31:40
A really important tip for working from home which is make sure you have a rock solid internet connection and that you always have a backup plan. So I was showing you what happens if your router goes down unexpectedly then just naturally hotspot on your phone.

Shaheen Samavati 31:57
No worries. I was just saying. We’re about to wrap up anyways. And I was just like telling people, well reminding them about the E-book and putting the link here for that, reminding them about happy healthy homeworking, healthyhappyhomeworking.com. And yeah, and well, we lost her again. But anyways, yeah, well I’ll be putting all the links to all those things after the episode. And well, I will tell Maya, thank you for taking time to join us on this live Q&A. And I just wanted to say thank you to everybody for listening in. And we are going… This interview will be also published on our podcast and we will publish a blog post about it with all the links to everything. So look out for that. And yeah, and make sure to subscribe to the podcast as well. And I just want to say thank you again to everybody for all your awesome questions. And thanks again to Maya for sharing her insights and advice. See you all soon. Bye.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai