Here is a transcript generated by otter.ai of The Content Mix podcast interview with James Stacey, B2B marketer and program marketing manager for the EMEA region at Red Hat, on effective B2B marketing strategies:

Shaheen Samavati 0:13
Hi everyone, I’m Shaheen from The Content Mix and I’m excited to be here with UK based James Stacey, who’s program marketing manager for the EMEA region at Red Hat, which is a global leader in enterprise open source solutions. Thanks so much for joining us, James.

James Stacey 0:27
Thanks for having me.

Shaheen Samavati 0:29
So let’s just get into it. To start out, if you could introduce yourself, in your own words, and tell us a bit more about how what you do relates to content marketing.

James Stacey 0:39
Yeah, of course. I’ve been in marketing for eight years and my current role is as a demand generation marketer for Red Hat, as you mentioned. I create content to educate new prospects, that’s my focus within Red Hat. Because we’re very much focused on new businesses who don’t currently work with us, the content is mainly around the challenges that those organizations face. I really love marketing. I think the essence of marketing is really storytelling and content marketing is just the best way to tell that story.

Shaheen Samavati 1:19
Absolutely. So you could also tell us a bit more about your background and how you got into marketing in the first place?

James Stacey 1:25
Yes. So when I went to university, I really didn’t know what I was going to do. I studied business studies because that just covered all bases. Marketing was something that stuck out at that point. I was very numbers orientated so when I left university, I got a job as an analyst. So I worked in the technology industry, I worked in the music industry. I got a job as an analyst at a small publisher in London, and they had a number of different websites and job boards and editorial sites. They wanted to have someone who dug into the numbers, and could understand how they could generate more revenue through the businesses that they had. Obviously, analysts analyzed what people did on the websites, how they interacted with the marketing, where they engaged, which drove the most growth and the most revenue for the business. Then of course, once I completed my reporting, they asked me if I could recommend changes and implement those changes into the business. I didn’t really know at the time, but it essentially was marketing that I was implementing. So how to generate better emails, to increase engagement there, investing in sort of PPC just at a really low level and target the exact audience that they wanted, that will generate that revenue. It was just a real thrill to put something into practice. Then, as I said, I’m a numbers guy. So when you put those marketing practices in, and then you see the numbers come up, and the revenue, go up for a business and know that you actually accomplished all of it. That was a real thrill. From then on that was it, marketing was my true course. So I do retain a lot of the numbers and the analytical side, I always like to report on what we’re doing. But the actual marketing is the real driver for me now.

Shaheen Samavati 3:39
It’s interesting that you worked for a publisher and moved into marketing for a brand or for a company, because they say everyone is becoming a publisher now. So I was curious, in your experience, what were the differences and similarities working for an actual publishing company versus now working for a brand that is putting out publications?

James Stacey 4:01
I think the really interesting thing is that there is always, I don’t want to say friction, because I feel like everyone in a business should be going in the same direction. But there can be a friction between the people who are writing content, and the people who are actually managing it and aligning it with a strategy. Obviously, the person writing it has got the audience, everyone’s got the audience in mind, but the person writing content really understands what they want to say and how they want to say it. Then sometimes other people can then shoehorn that into something that doesn’t quite fit, or vice versa. Maybe the person writing the content doesn’t really understand how it’s going to be taken to market. In a publisher that is so much more polarized because you’ve got essentially the sales teams who are trying to get advertising revenue into those businesses. So the customers have so much strength in what is going to be written and what should be produced. Then you’ve obviously got the editorial teams who are very, very passionate about what they’re writing. So there’s a real push back either way, all the time, and it’s always about understanding how you can find that middle ground. So a lot of that I still implement now. So how can we win from all angles? How can the content be really engaging and relevant? But also, how can that content really hit the goals and targets for the audience and for the business?

Shaheen Samavati 5:51
Yeah, that’s interesting, but it’s true, at a publication you’ve got the competing interests of advertisers versus readers. Whereas writing for a brand your interests are more aligned, no? Like everyone’s working to reach the customers?

James Stacey 6:08
Yeah, but sometimes you do have those conversations. So at a huge organization like Red Hat, you’ve got product marketers, who evangelize the products and the specific features of that particular product. But if you spoke to any content writer at Red Hat and said can you write a blog about this particular feature, on this particular product and how cool and fun it is? They’d roll their eyes and be like, well, I don’t know how engaging I can make that and for a particular audience, of course. But when you’re speaking to a customer, all they want to know is, okay I’m facing this challenge, maybe I’ve got too much data and it’s causing me issues in creating applications and taking them to market or the infrastructure I have, that manages all that data. All they want to hear is, ‘Oh we can help you manage all that data, streamline your system and take some of the mundane routine tasks out of your day.’ And obviously, the product marketer, yeah they understand that’s what this particular feature fixes. But it’s the feature that excites them and that they want to get out there. So I think, no matter the business you’re in, everyone’s got their own angle of what they want to talk about. My role, because I’m more of a coordinator than a content writer, is to make sure that everyone’s happy. To make sure that everyone sees the value of what we’re doing and why we’re doing it and ultimately, to keep the customer at the center of what we do.

Shaheen Samavati 7:53
Okay, excellent. I was gonna ask you next to tell us a bit more about your role, you touched on that already, but could you tell us also just a bit more about what Red Hat does and what your responsibilities are there?

James Stacey 8:06
Yeah, so like most people and probably a majority of your listeners, Red Hat is relatively obscure, unless you’re in the industry. Red Hat focuses on what we call open source code. So about 20 years ago, all businesses were writing their own proprietary code. If you wanted a solution, you bought it from Microsoft, you were tied into a contract. They had developers that were building those products and you would obviously charge the amount of costs that it would take for all of those developers and everyone within the business to create the solution. A lot of developers are very passionate about what they do, so there are sprouted communities of these developers, creating even better tools and centered around what we call a linex distribution, which is an operating system of sorts. Developers were creating fantastic code and because of the communities that develop this, no company could monetize the business. So about 20 years ago, there was products and solutions that were being built that were better than the likes of Microsoft, the Amazon of their time, but no one could monetize it. So the people that started Red Hat saw an opportunity because they said, people agree that this is the best code and people aren’t monetizing it, so there’s no business model, so even the biggest companies in the world are using it but no one’s looking to monetize it. The first business who manages to monetize this is going to have the best code in the world and no competitors. So it’s a really interesting story and I’ve been brought in and all my colleagues are fantastic and so passionate. So it’s strange going from not knowing a business to joining it, and finding out how strong the culture is and the strong appeal to what we do on a day to day basis. So I’m continually learning about our products, our portfolio, and hopefully taking the story to the next level.

Shaheen Samavati 10:31
Okay. Well, I have so many questions I could ask you about open source and how that works. Although I guess that’s a topic for another day. Maybe you could just tell us a bit more about your day to day, what’s your typical day like?

James Stacey 10:50
So I’m obviously recording this during a pandemic, I’m working from home. So the level of meetings has gone through the roof. So simple stakeholder management doesn’t become so simple. So, on a day to day basis, I’m speaking to product marketing managers, understanding the product solutions and portfolio, how they’re changing and how that reflects to the customers. I’m talking to marketers in the field, who ultimately have the conversations on the ground in their own regions. I’m speaking with internal marketing account managers, agencies who we’re working with to create good quality content. Then reporting and data teams to understand what we’ve got in the market, how it’s working and how it can be better optimized. So I’m forever jumping from one Zoom call into another Zoom call and hopefully getting some work done in between as well.

Shaheen Samavati 11:59
So a lot of coordination it sounds like. I was curious, maybe this is a silly question, but the word program marketing manager, what’s the word program mean in there?

James Stacey 12:08
Yeah, before I joined Red Hat, actually that was one of my first questions. So because Red Hat is so so large, we don’t really have any generalist marketing managers. Everyone is assigned to what we call a program. So maybe you work in particular verticals, so insurance or oil and gas. So your programs and all your marketing efforts will be aligned to that vertical. My program is what we call mainly acquisition marketing. So customers who aren’t yet customers, so essentially prospects, and companies who spend very, very little with Red Hat, and there’s a huge opportunity to grow. So these people may not know too much about open source, it’s very much we’re holding their hands and taking them through the education and awareness journey. Red Hat already support 95% of the top 500 biggest organizations in the world, that’s our bread and butter. But if we’re looking to grow, we need to be speaking to the smaller businesses, when I say small businesses, it’s like 1000 to 5000 employees. If you’re working in that business, you don’t think it’s small. So we’ve got to be very careful to say, you’re a bit smaller and your challenges are different. But Red Hat is still a fantastic place for you to work. So my program, as it were, is focusing on acquisition marketing for Red Hat.

Shaheen Samavati 13:50
I see. So programe is kind of an internal term used to describe different areas of the business?

James Stacey 13:57
That’s correct.

Shaheen Samavati 13:58
Cool. So going to some specifics of content marketing, could you just share an example of a campaign or a piece of content that has worked really well for you?

James Stacey 14:10
Yeah, of course. So as I mentioned, I work at the top of the funnel. I’m really focused on net new customers for Red Hat. So if anyone doesn’t understand the term of the funnel, the top of the funnel is where people don’t really understand the business and you’re directing them down the funnel to educate, give them more awareness about the products, take them through solution consideration, and eventually at the bottom of the funnel, they become a customer. So that’s the content journey that they would follow. So because we’re one of the first marketing teams that those people will engage with as a prospect, we really want to focus on the challenges that they have as an organization rather than trying to sell the solution that we have without really giving the context. So we recently created an ebook, which doesn’t really go into detail about anything. But it gives a broad overview of all the areas within a business that can be positively affected by working with Red Hat. So whether it’s your security, whether it’s your infrastructure, the way you manage data. It can also be read by anyone within the business. So it could be maybe a procurement team who have been passed this contract and say, we really want to work with Red Hat but the procurement team obviously need to understand why Red Hat is a good solution and why the IT team wants to spend a significant amount of money with Red Hat. So I think we can always get too caught up in how good our products are and not really sell why we’re doing it. So the recent ebook we’ve created is breaking new ground for Red Hat and we’ve seen some really good results. We’re looking to build up, build out more content off the back of it. So we’ve got a webinar and blog series coming out in the next couple of quarters. Hopefully, they’re going to do equally as well.

Shaheen Samavati 16:14
What do you think was unique about that ebook that made it especially resonate or work well?

James Stacey 16:24
The title is “Open your Possibilities With Red Hat” and I think that worked quite well, because when people are reading it, it’s quite an engaging title and it’s really open for anyone. So people were quite curious. Then it was just so easily digestible. You didn’t go into it thinking I hope I have enough IT knowledge and understanding around open source to be able to read this and comprehend it. So it was just really nice, Red Hat is here to hold your hand, no matter what your understanding is with open source, what your understanding is with Red Hat and no matter what your infrastructure, what current products you have within your business that maybe you want to get rid of or you want to keep and manage better, it was just really, really simple. Sometimes we can get too technical and forget how easy it is just to say things simply.

Shaheen Samavati 17:32
Yeah, that’s a good point. It sounds like it was something really practical and to the point, it answered people’s questions. Sometimes that’s the best depending on…like it sounds like you’re reaching people at a point when they want to know more, right? This is for that part of the funnel. So it’s like clarifying everything and putting that all in one place?

James Stacey 17:55
Yeah and then channelling them depending on what their business challenge is. So if this part of the book really spoke to you, then this is the next logical step for you to go. So our program feeds the other program. So when I talked about at the top of the funnel, if they engage with the stuff that we do, we hopefully take enough data, enough information about what that particular customer wants and needs, then pass it to the relevant team at the next stage in the funnel to continue their journey and nurture.

Shaheen Samavati 18:30
Excellent. So could you tell us a bit more about who your target audience is? What’s your approach in reaching them? As well as what’s important to keep in mind when when reaching out to this kind of audience?

James Stacey 18:43
Yes, of course. So we obviously target our typical IT operations, IT managers, administrators, that is the core of our business. But we also speak to line of business heads, CMOs, CIO’s, COO’s, or heads of those departments. Or it could be someone like procurement, who wants a better understanding of what Red Hat does and why their business is engaging with us. So we make sure that anyone with any level of technical information can feel serviced by our content. We obviously make sure that depending on their experience and level of understanding that we’re giving them the right next step after they engage with us as well.

Shaheen Samavati 19:34
Okay. So what’s important to keep in mind when it comes to content marketing in your industry and reaching this kind of audience?

James Stacey 19:45
Yeah. I know I’ve touched on it before but talking about the challenges rather than actually the technical solutions. So when you’re talking to a C suite, for example. They’re not in the day to day nuts and bolts, they just know that if their business is going to be a success and their customers are going to be happy, they need to service them fast, reliable, they can’t have any downtime in their service. So you speak to those challenges. Then if you’re IT opt or someone within the IT department, you know what your day to day looks like, you know where your pinch points are, your challenges are as a business. So our content needs to speak to those as well. So it’s really understanding that, yes okay maybe you’re talking to a manufacturing company. But that doesn’t mean to say all of your content needs to focus on, this is how a good manufacturing company works and this is how we can help you. It’s saying okay, you’re the COO of the manufacturing company and this is your challenge. This is why Red Hat is here for you. You’re the IT manager of this IT manufacturing company and this is your challenge and this is how Red Hat can help you too. So just because two people are in the same organization, it doesn’t mean that they should be spoken to the same way.

Shaheen Samavati 21:21
Absolutely. When it comes to tone of voice, how would you describe your approach?

James Stacey 21:29
So we’ve got a really strong brand, because we developed out of the open source community and we still work so closely with them. Also, because our competitors are also our partners. We’re in a really, really strange place, our dynamic is in a sort of juxtaposition to any normal business. So for us, the strength of our brand is to remain open and honest. We really strive to be the holding, helping hand in open source. It’s still relatively new for so many businesses and so we can’t have a level of expectation about any one we speak to. It’s something that our brand team has an incredibly strong position within the business. If the brand team even suggests that what you’re doing isn’t aligned to Red Hat, then your campaign isn’t going to go anywhere. So we have to be really careful with our tone of voice. It’s something that’s really, really close to every campaign that we deliver.

Shaheen Samavati 22:46
Super interesting approach. I wanted to ask you, what do you you think some companies get wrong when it comes to content marketing?

James Stacey 22:57
I work in B2B and have done for some time. One of the challenges I’ve always had, particularly when you’re working with people in generating demand, their main KPI is the number of leads that they’re generating. So the number of email addresses they’re adding to the database. So if they have a really, really good year, it’s because mainly obviously, its revenue and measuring the ROI. But essentially, a lot of times it is the number of email addresses they’ve got into the database. So sometimes people can be blindsided by that and every single campaign, every single piece of content, everything has to lead towards getting someone to give their email address. But then they forget that when they get home, and they open their emails and their unsubscribing from emails, or someone’s trying to capture their data, they’re saying no or they’re not giving away their own personal data for just a piece of content. I think we have to take some of that into our business lives as well. I’m really keen to make sure that we’re creating content that is engaging, that doesn’t sit behind a form that people don’t have to say, this is my name, this is my mobile number, this is my email address, this is the business I work in and the number of employees it has and the revenue that our business has. Once I’ve given you all this information, then I’d like to read an infographic or something that’s really light and doesn’t warrant that level of information. So from a B2B standpoint, that’s the challenge that I come up against sometimes. The other thing is just not having the customer at the center of what you’re doing because if you’re looking at content or campaigns on their own, then they might have a really good user journey. But you’ve got to think about the customer journey as part of the whole organization, so a customer might come in from one campaign, another team within the business might be doing another campaign. So if you look at your three emails and say, Oh yeah, someone received that email and then that email, then that email, it all makes sense. But how does that look to the customer who is engaging with multiple different touchpoints? They might be on social media, email, they might be coming through paid media or organic channels or visiting your website. Are all those experiences tied together? Is there a coherent message across all of that marketing. When you’re in a company the size of Red Hat, that is very, very difficult. That is why I’m in so many meetings all the time, making sure we’re managing those stakeholders, because we really need to make sure we’re always customer centric and the customer sits in the middle of everything we do.

Shaheen Samavati 26:03
Yeah, those two points go hand in hand I think. On the first point, though, what you’re saying is not that you shouldn’t ask for the data, because obviously that’s your goal, but that you need to make sure that what you’re offering in exchange for that is worth it for the person?

James Stacey 26:17
Yes, no, absolutely. So like I mentioned, the ebook that we produced last year, we’re going to be creating blogs and webinars around that content. We’re gonna have really nice, interesting interviews with people within Red Hat with customers, possibly with open source community members. What that will give us is really rich content that is very engaging, that we don’t ask for people to give us their contact details to watch or read. But we hope that it’s engaging and interesting enough to say, if you think this is right for you, then this ebook is definitely right for you. Please give us your details to read the book, because essentially the more you understand this ebook, the more value you can bring to your own business. It’d be really easy to wus out and put the webinars behind another form, because we think the webinars are good, or the blogs are so good, we put a form behind them and then we’re saying, okay, we’re definitely going to get more contacts. But how good is that customer journey, how many customers will want to or prospects will want to put their details into a number of different forms to reach content that is just a bit fun and light hearted and isn’t going to make a huge difference to their day? So that’s hopefully what we’re going to bring.

Shaheen Samavati 27:54
I see. So basically, you need some ungated content to gain their trust and then only put the super high value stuff behind it?

James Stacey 28:03
Yeah and you’ve really got to trust that the content you’re delivering is good because, we could have people watching the webinar who then don’t download the ebook. In that respect, if we had gated the webinar, then we might have got their details. But how good are details to someone who watched a webinar, didn’t really engage with it or like it, and then decided to leave the site. Is that a good journey? Is that someone you want in a database? Or someone who watched something organically, then clicks the ebook to find out more, gave us their details, and has touched three or four different pieces of content before entering the database and has a much better understanding of what Red Hat does?

Shaheen Samavati 28:05
Absolutely, it’s a really good point and interesting to think about. So we need to switch gears a little bit and ask you about what skills you think are important for marketers these days?

James Stacey 29:04
So I think marketers really need to understand a bit of everything. They need to understand the products that they’re talking about, the audience and the pain points that they have. All of the different marketing channels, attribution and data is so much more important now than it used to be within marketing. So because you need such a broad understanding of so many different parts of the business, I think that’s why we’re seeing the rise of the CMO and also the number of marketers who are actually entering CEO positions within businesses. I can only see that growing, because marketers need to have the pulse of their internal business, the businesses they speak to and the wider industry. All of those challenges are also what a CEO is thinking about on a day to day basis.

Shaheen Samavati 29:58
Yeah, absolutely. That’s an interesting trend. Then also, what advice would you give to someone starting out now in marketing?

James Stacey 30:07
I like that question. So if I had to think about what I’d been telling myself eight years ago when I started, it would be really that marketing is a broad field. You can have so many different personality types and interests, just within marketing. So if you’re artistic, then there’s creative routes that you can go down within marketing. If you’re numbers driven, then programatic is a growing field within marketing. If I started again now, I’d definitely be going down the programatic route, because of my interests and there’s always going to be a future there. If you’re process driven, marketing operations is really interesting. Marketing is getting more complex by the day, marketing’s getting pulled into sales, marketing is getting pulled into all the martech stack. So the technology within marketing. But also at the same time, there’s nothing wrong with being a generalist. So I spent years at marketing agencies. I was an account manager there, I got to see lots of different companies, with lots of different challenges and I got to see campaigns that went really well, I got to see campaigns that went really badly. So I would also implore anyone that is thinking about marketing, or even if you’re in it, looking for a change and haven’t tried agency side for a while, at least a year because you will see so many different ways of working within one marketing agency than you ever will within a business. In a business, you only see the campaigns that you’re running in that particular business. Obviously, you can only run a certain number of campaigns in a year. When you’re at an agency, you’ll see your own accounts, you’ll see case studies of other accounts within the business, you’ll see what works, what doesn’t, you’ll work with brilliant people who work across a number of different parts of marketing. It’s a great experience and I definitely wouldn’t be where I am today without my time at agencies.

Shaheen Samavati 32:27
Yeah, that’s a great point. So many companies ask for previous agency experience. So it makes sense from that perspective as well, it’s something definitely valued by employers.

James Stacey 32:37
Yeah.

Shaheen Samavati 32:40
So we’re getting to the last section of the interview. So we don’t have a ton of time for recommendations, but I just wanted to ask you for a few of your tips for other marketers. First of all, any resources for staying up to date on marketing trends or also any online community, publication, podcast, things like that?

James Stacey 33:05
So I’m within B2B marketing, therefore I read the B2B marketing magazine, the online version. I try to attend webinars where I can, I find it’s easier to stay on top of the newest changes to the market in webinar form. If you’re reading someone’s website it’s just whatever is interesting that day. But the webinars there’s normally case studies and customers behind those findings. I also try and read up about my industry. So I’d recommend anyone, whether you’re agency or within a business, read the investor updates. You should know the share price of the company you work for and understand the industry that you’re in and the product that you serve and the customers. If you’re in a particular vertical, like I don’t know, maybe you service oil and gas, you should know all about the industry, your competitors and how the share price of your biggest competitors are at any one time. If you really delve into where you are and your understanding of the market, you will be able to serve the people that engage with your marketing so much better.

Shaheen Samavati 34:26
Absolutely. Great tip. What’s a favorite software tool or app right now?

James Stacey 34:36
This is gonna be really boring. I live in Google Drive and having been at Microsoft Office companies in the past. I just absolutely live in Google Drive, it’s such an easy place to be. So I’m going to be pretty middle of the road and say Google Drive.

Shaheen Samavati 34:57
Okay, totally agree with you on that one. Do you have a productivity hack to share?

James Stacey 35:04
So I’m very process driven. I have big to do lists. Obviously, you’ve got all of the productivity tools like Monday.com, Asana, Trello. But if you’re ever working with people and collaborating, it just takes one person not to be updating those tools for it all to fall to bits. So for me, I plan my whole week on a Monday. That really helps me understand the big rocks, what are the biggest things that I need to get done that week. It also gives me direction. So every day I’m waking up and I know exactly what I’ve got to do that day. I don’t like to be responsive. I don’t like emails to change the direction of my day. I like to have that control at any one point.

Shaheen Samavati 35:55
Yeah, that’s what we all strive I think, for but it’s difficult.

James Stacey 35:59
Yeah easier said than done.

Shaheen Samavati 36:01
Definitely. Do you have a favorite marketing or business book?

James Stacey 36:12
I do like to read and I do like to challenge myself. I’ve recently finished Shoe Dog, which is the biography of the guy that started Nike. That was really, really interesting actually and nice to see that the challenges of yesteryear are still the challenges of today, albeit with different tools at our disposal. You mentioned earlier how I stay up to date with industry trends, most of my reading is in the evening and outside of work. So I like to read stuff that’s entertaining, but also that I might be able to learn a bit from.

Shaheen Samavati 36:57
Aboslutely, makes sense. Who’s a professional role model or a source of inspiration?

James Stacey 37:07
So I’ve had a couple of role models from businesses I’ve worked at. I guess that’d be more of a mentor. I’m really guilty if I’m ever scrolling through LinkedIn and there’s something of Simon Sinek, I can’t help but stop and watch it, even if I’ve watched it before. He just makes the overly complicated sound simple. There’s no way you can’t watch one of his videos and not be inspired to actually make a change in your own day to day. That’s probably pretty middle of road, he’s the Google Drive of inspiration.

Shaheen Samavati 37:51
Yeah, but it’s a great one. Any other recommendations you have, just in terms of podcasts, online communities, or other things like that?

James Stacey 38:05
So I recently joined another online community called Finite which is B2B focused. So it’s got a Slack channel which is really interesting to see what my equivalents in all different businesses are doing. So that’s a really nice community to be a part of. Podcasts, I quite like podcasts that help me develop as a person because I think the better person I am, the better marketer I will be and the better I’ll be able to contribute to my business. So, Dr. Rangan Chatterjee has a podcast called Feel Better, Live More, I’ve probably butchered that.

Shaheen Samavati 39:07
Well we’ve reached the end of the interview, but I just wanted to give you the chance for any final parting advice or final takeaways?

James Stacey 39:17
I’ve really, really enjoyed today’s talk. Sometimes you work so often doing the day to day that weeks go past and you don’t really know what you’re doing and why you’re doing it. So it’s been really nice to actually have some time to reflect. Maybe I’ll schedule some time with some of my colleagues and we’ll have just an open conversation about what we’ve done over the last six months. I hope that some of my colleagues would get just as much enjoyment out of reflecting like we have just now. So thank you so much for the invitation, Shaheen, and I look forward to watching and listening to more of your podcasts to come and joining the community.

Shaheen Samavati 40:04
Yeah, absolutely, definitely. I hope to see you there on the Facebook group. Thanks so much for being on the podcast today. It was great speaking with you.

James Stacey 40:13
Thank you for having me.

Shaheen Samavati 40:14
Yeah, thanks everybody for listening in. For more perspectives on content marketing in Europe checkout veracontent.com/mix and keep tuning into the podcast for more interviews with content experts. See you next time. Bye.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai